I went to the mountain top.

[Osk]

So, I went to the mountain top, to find guidance and enlightenment. 

Much of what I thought I knew I now realize was false.  Much of who I once was I no longer am.  I find myself in a mysterious new world where I do not know the language or customs.  I live within a body that is at times like a stranger to me.  I look into my reflection and recognition comes slowly.  Who am I?  How did this happen?   I try to live this new life, but I find that I do not at times feel connected to it.  I eat differently, I dress differently, I move through my day doing different things, following rules I barely understand.   But at times all this feels like a dream.   Am I really this person?   Is this what I am supposed to be doing?    There are days I wonder what all of this means.  Friends and family cannot relate to me as they once did.   People I barely knew now want to be my friends.   I exercise, my body changes, grows stronger.  Does this betray who I was?  Is that person deserving of such betrayal?  Is this just a change, am I still really me?    What is my place in this world?   What is the meaning of all of this?

So I went to the mountain top, to find guidance and enlightenment.

There were people such as I, travelers and explorers who had made the same journey as I did.  Some were as new to this as I was.  Others were far beyond me in this new place, having live with this for years longer than I.  Surely here could be found answers?  Surely here could be found some hints and clues to help me come to terms with all of this.  Surely someone will have figured out the language of this new world and instruct me in a few simple words and phrases.
 
And at the mountain top we gathered and many who were there should not have been.  They were new and confused, lost and had wandered to the mountain top by mistake.  To them this new world was filled with wonder.  The questions they asked were things most of us had learned long ago.  In a way they are on this journey with us, but they are not yet facing the deep dark realities we at this stage of the journey endure.   So, those of us who were hurting and confused held our tongues, not wishing to frighten them with tales of the sorrows they might one day face themselves.

But still, we had come this far, to the mountaintop.   We needed guidance and enlightenment.  Surely those ahead of us would have some answers.

So we spoke, for a time, of our lives.  And I learned something.

It turns out that Greek Yogurt is a great source of protein, and you can mix it and make it onion dip.

Cantaloupe would be a good late night snack.

Someone, four years ahead of me on this journey, said, “I don’t know what to eat?”

We spoke of Chinese food.

We spoke of Pizza.

We spoke, mainly, about food.  Inside my heart was slowly dying.

Food.  Really?  Is this all we are?  Is this what makes us who we are?  Food?  At this point we are still just talking about food?  Seriously?

I came down from the mountain top, regretting I had climbed to the top.  I was weaker now than before, more discouraged then when I started.   I began to think that I shall need to find my own path, make my own way.

I ran upon the endless trail of the treadmill, I listened to my I-pod, sweat poured off my brow.  My legs pumped, hard, strong; my heart beat powerfully in my chest.  20 minutes…30 minutes…then onto my weights.    Who am I?  What am I doing?  Will this ever feel normal?   There would be no answers from the mountaintop.   I would reach enlightenment in my own time and in my own way.  At least I was looking for it; at least I wasn’t blind to the trail my feet were on.   My workouts become easier, I increase the weights, my body aches and I welcome it.  It brings me focus, it exhausts me and brings me a measure of peace.   For now, it must be enough.

I look back, over my shoulder, at the mountaintop behind me.   I do not know if I will return to its summit.  It seems behind me on my path now; to return would be to lose a measure of my progress.   I look back and wonder - Are they still talking about lose clothing, corrective undergarments and Greek Yogurt? 

[Veee1226]

Thank you, Oscar for posting on this topic. 

I have not been posting much on the boards.  I feel that no one, except a handful of us, even pay attention to the boards, so why should I open up and reflect on things if they are just going to fall on deaf ears?

My life has been deconstructed and I didn’t expect that to happen.  I expected to lose weight and I expected to face my food addictions and try to learn to eat properly.  I knew I would have to start going to the gym, make the right choices and change many patterns in my life.  Yes, I expected some changes in my life, but there is no way to anticipate everything or how your mind and/or body will respond.  I didn’t expect to lose my best friend because I became thinner than her.  I didn’t expect my sister to turn on me and hurt me constantly because I am now thinner than her.  I didn’t expect to get so much male attention and yet feel the loneliness that I feel.  I didn’t expect my life to be taken apart like a Lego set.  Now, I have no idea how to put it back together.  None of this is mentioned in the packet of information we are given prior to surgery.

The way I am feeling right now, I no longer want to continue going to the meetings.  I am feeling a lot of anger and resentment towards this whole situation. 

In my very humble opinion, I feel that the general meetings are too large to accomplish anything in the hour we are there.  There are too many people from the pre-meeting seminar invited to stay.  I think it would be best if a panel of “post-op” people should be chosen or volunteer to sit in another room with them and answer their questions and share personal experiences.  Their presence in the meeting prohibits the people who are actually taking the steps towards the surgery from discussing real issues.  We wind up catering to the needs of the "seminar people" and not supporting the people who really need some support.  The other problem I have noticed is that people sometimes monopolize the meeting, talking over others, commenting when it is not appropriate, and expressing their negative opinions too strongly.  And some of these people don’t come to the meeting on a regular basis, which adds fuel to my anger.  For example, in the last meeting there was a man who was going to start his liquid diet the next day and everyone bombarded this poor guy with stories about how horrible their liquid diet experience was.  That was so irresponsible of the group.  I was so embarrassed to witness it!  As if this journey isn’t hard enough, did he really need to hear all of that the night before?  Seriously, if he never came back, I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised.

The topics of the meetings do not deal with anything real, and again, this is my opinion.  It is more like a glorified Weight Watchers meeting than a support group.  Our best meetings in the past have come from very emotional topics, usually suggested by Oscar, that help us to delve into some of the real issues.  It is easy to sit and talk for an hour about what food we can no longer eat, and so much harder to talk about WHY we are still concentrating so much on what we can no longer eat.  And yet, we get angry when people tell us we “took the easy way out.”

The “9 month and Plus Post-Op" meeting should, under no circumstances, have anyone there that does not meet the qualifications of the meeting.  At the last meeting, there were 5 people who did not qualify to be there.  I was an emotional mess that night.  I was hurting very badly and needed to talk.  But I was not about to open up about anything that was tearing me up inside in front of someone I have never seen before, has only 3 months out, or just happened to be there because they had a follow-up appointment with Dr. Buchin.  There should be rules and/or guidelines that need to be enforced.  That group should be a safe zone; a place where I can say, “Hey, I am a year out, I hate my life, this is so f**king hard!  Why the hell did I do this?” and feel safe saying that and know that others there feel the same way.  I don’t ever need to go to one of these meeting and hear about what food I can “cheat” with or what more I can do with Greek Yogurt.  As a matter of fact, I don’t think that food should ever be discussed at all in these meetings.

I apologize if my words are offending anyone, but I pushed hard for these “support groups.”  I have worked hard to make the group whole, and I am sick and tired of feeling like I am one of the few who are struggling.  When does this “support” group begin to act like a support group?

At this moment, I am not sure if I want to return.  I think that I need to find a support group that will give me what I need.  I enjoy seeing everyone and watching their journey, but as the topics veer off into “food never-never land” I get really aggravated and I don’t need any additional stress in my life right now.  I have worked very hard on this journey, and I have reached a very delicate juncture and I need to take care of myself.

This is where my head is at.

[such912]

i am at a loss of words guys... i agree with some of the stuff both of you pointed out and yes there is only a certain point that we can reach with greek yogurt, but we have to realize that for most of us at the meetings, FOOD is the reason we got to such a low point in our lives....

I also agree that pre-op patients shouldn't have been at the meeting, but that is not our call... We have to realize that the meetings are a benefit and we should make the most of them as it is personal time being devoted by Dr. B and Sophia....

i am sure you guys disagree with what i wrote, but then this is just my 2 cents on the topic....

asim

[Veee1226]

I understand what you are saying Asim, and I love you for speaking up.  Of course we are all there because of our past history in food consumption, BUT there is a reason why we eat or why we ended up in these positions and THAT doesn't get discussed often enough.  That is the frustration I am feeling and Oscar feels, too.  There are others I have spoken to also who feel the same way, and yet it is Oscar, you, I, Tammy and occasionally Tony who post on the boards.  Where is everyone else?  Why don't they speak up?  Why are they all sitting there when the topic veers off course, once again, and we wind up talking about mindless matters when we are all on the same journey?  Am I the ONLY person who is going through a tough time?  I doubt it.  But I am tired of being one of the few voices who speaks out.  I have great love and respect for Dr. Buchin and Sophia and I have been one of their biggest supporters in the group.  My feelings for them have not changed.  But my dedication to the group is changing because my life is changing and I need some help dealing with it. 

The dynamics of the group change and that is understandable.  But the basics and our purpose for being there MUST remain strong and constant, otherwise we are giving up our personal time with family, our gym schedule, our work schedules, etc.  to do what?  Swap recipes?

Make this a challenge to everyone out there lurking on the boards who don't post but read everything, let this be a challenge to the people in our group who come every two weeks and say they are fine.  It is time for others to speak up and tell us what they REALLY feel and what they are REALLY going through.

If I am one of the few who has these problems, then that is fine.  But I want to hear it from somebody else.

And, by the way, maybe Dr. Buchin should consider bringing in someone who has the specialty training in running a group like this.  This way, Sophia can sit back and participate, and give her opinions rather than having to run it and try to keep it on track.  We, as a group, are equally as responsible for what happens in that group, as much as Dr. B and Sophia.

Again, I do not mean to offend anyone.  I just feel like I am always fighting for my life!  I want and need a place to go to release some of these emotions.

Respectfully,

Veronica

[Albrightlcsw]

As someone who is working towards that mountain top I give Oscar, Veronica and Asim a tremendous amout of credit for sharing.  I have to say that for the first few meetings hearing about food issues was fine.  Hearing about ways to spice up Isopure shakes was helpful and tips on what type of yogurt is best for protein was actually something I knew nothing about.  Being four months out of surgery it has gotten a little old.  I know what I am saying may not be received well but like Veronica I am only speaking my mind, it is my opinion.  While food remains an issue it really takes a back burner to all of the emotional and physical changes that no amount of research could have prepared me for.  Surgery was not an easy way out for me it was a tremendous emotional, physical and spiritual decision I made to better my health and I think like many, though we don't always talk about it, to change how other's perceive me, how others look at me and even how I look at myself.  I am talking about those secondary gains that come with the weight loss that have become the pressing issues.

While I agree it can be important to talk about food I feel like the support group is not the forum for that.  Perhaps there needs to be another forum for that, or a specific meeting when that is addressed.  When I hear the term support group I envision a group of people who have walked a path supporting and helping others are struggling along the same road.  I really like Veronica's suggestion of a panel of post-surgical patients being on a panel or forum for those preparing for surgery.  A group like this allows future surgical patients to ask questions openly and honestly to those who have already had surgery.  I feel like the large number of people who stay for the support group after the informational session seriously limits what we can talk about.  There have been times in the past four months where I have sat in that room amazed there are so many people, yet questioning how helpful such a large group can be.  While there is no way to limit the number of people who attend I do feel like having people stay after the information session overwhelms the meeting.  When someone is preparing for surgery they have different issues and concerns.  How will I ever make it through the liquid diet?  What happens when I get out of surgery?  What about pain after surgery?  What about getting enough protein?  Which Isopure flavor tastes best?  Is there anything besides Isopure?  These are all legitimate questions and concerns, I know because I had them.  I tried to google the answers to those questions in part because I was ashamed to ask but also because I felt like the support group was not the place to ask.  I still feel that the support group is not the place to ask those questions. 

I have had the opportunity to spend time with Veronica and Oscar and had the opportunity to listen to some of their experiences and have them ask me about mine.  They know about many of the things I am facing, the challenges that are presenting themselves to me.  Issues about dealing with how I feel, how I perceive myself and how the hell do I deal with all of these changes.  The time they have spent with me has been invaluable and that is the kind of thing I envision for the support group.    Even if things are difficult to bring up during the course of the support group I envision people reaching out to each other, maybe even exchanging phone numbers because no one knows what is like to go though something than someone who has already experienced it.  There are dark realities I never even anticipated, we are travelers and explorers and there is also a reality that more people are considering and having surgey.  What I see are a sometimes very large group of people being brought together for one purpose even though we are all on different schedules. Being brought together for one purpose but it is like mixing oil and water.  It just doesn't work even though we keep trying.   

I do not wish to offend anyone, especially Dr. Buchin and Sophia!  I mean that from the bottom of my heart.  I think there is a tremendous strength in the fact that Oscar, Veronica and Asim have spoken up, they have talked about the things that are floating in my mind.  These are things that go through my head when I am sitting at the support group.  There was a time when I looked forward to the group, part of me still does but a part of me feels like "here we go again."  I feel very badly that Oscar feels he may need to find his own path and make his own way.  I feel badly that Veronica does not feel comfortable opening up and isn't sure she wants to go.  Oscar and Veronica are part of the reason I go, they have knowledge and experience that I need.  In the last meeting I cringed when people responded to the gentleman who was starting his liquid diet.  I wanted to stand up and make it know that this was not the way to encourage someone through this difficult time but sometimes I have a hard time finding my voice.  We should not sugar coat things because the liquid diet was tough, instead lets give this man and others like him support and let him know it can be done even if it seems impossible. Maybe there does neet to be a panel of post-ops who can not only answer those questions but can answer them in a way that doesn't make this man dread the fact that he is starting the liquid diet.  Let's not discourage someone, lets nurture them through this. 

I think it might be a good idea to sit down as a group and assess what is really needed to accomodate as many patients (both pre and post op) as possible.  As a group it is important that we the members have a voice in how the group is to be run.  The group process is a difficult one especially when it is open ended and group members come and go, but it is a process, one that must change regularly to meet the needs of it's members.  I honestly believe that this can be another way the group can grow and meet it's primary purpose to be supportive to each other.  We need a support group, we are a unique crew on a lifelong journey..........

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

[Veee1226]

Tammy,

This was one of the most eloquent and well thought out posts I have ever read!  You will be another "hero member" in no time and you will be there to lead the way for someone else, as I have been doing for you and as Oscar and others did for me.  I love your suggestions and am hoping that they will be taken to heart and some changes can be made.  Thank you for reminding me of the importance of this forum and how much I miss this kind of interaction!  You are an amazing woman and I can't wait for you to start recognizing this in yourself as well.  Find your voice and shout it from the mountain top! 

I love you and thank you for being a loving and supportive friend!

Veronica

[Osk]

While others are getting worked up over this issue, I felt I needed to point out something rather humorous.

The night of the last 1 year and beyond meeting that sparked this situation, which I will forever remember as the “Greek Yogurt Incident of 2010”; we actually had a formal topic of conversation.   I proposed it and I hoped to really discuss it with the group.  It was called “Maintaining Motivation”.

It’s funny how the way the meeting itself unfolded was so damaging to the motivation of some of the attendees.  This was definitely NOT what I was going for when I proposed the topic or walked in the door that day.

And ... This really  isn't about food. Not anymore, maybe it never really was.

Nobody becomes morbidly obese because they are hungry all the time.  We all got to that point because food replaced something we were lacking in our lives.  Once we can’t eat and lose the weight that issue, that real issue should at least make itself known.   To say this is “just about food” just doesn’t hold water for me.   Sure, I like to eat as much as the next guy, maybe more, but food isn’t the problem.  We are.  Life is.  I am.   The attitude that this is all “just about food” is dangerous.   If we don’t confront and try to solve our real problems we will fail.  We will gain everything back when those issues cannot be resolved.  It’s time people faced the mirror, looked deeply into it, closed their eyes, stopped blaming McDonalds and took some responsibility for the situation they’ve found themselves in.

[Veee1226]

What does it really matter, Oscar?  No one is going to address anything anyway.  Nothing was posted last night.  No one new viewed it.  This isn't just about the last meeting, it is about the direction all the meetings have been going for a long time.

If no one else cares, why should I?

[such912]

Obviously food cannot be blamed for people's health problems, because almost everything in moderation can be tolerated by our bodies without going haywire. 

I also agree "MOTIVATION" is the key factor for success post surgery, because it does not take too long to gain even a pound back.  I agree that food is not the issue, and me personally being 14 months post-op, i look at some of the stories of people who have gained their weight back, it frightens me.  Yet, at the same time only I know how hard i have been working and am working to not only lose weight but to change everything about me, simply because "the old me" had chosen an early death from morbid obesity complications over a fulfilling (which i still believe i will never have) healthy life.   

I think that food is constantly brought up over and over again at the meetings because people have lost focus and need to be reminded about what they should be eating.

I apologize Oscar if you found my post offensive.... but it was what i felt

take care

asim

[Osk]

Asim, you are like my brother in this group.  There is no need to apologize.   People can disagree, even passionately disagree, and still maintain a high level of respect and support for one another.   

[Arlene]

This is the first time I am logging on here.  I wanted to know why Veronica didn't come last night and was upset by the obvious dissatisfaction I saw on Oscar's face as well.  I am newer at this whole process than both of you and have valued your honesty and willingness to say a lot of what I have been thinking and feeling for years. 

I agree that the meetings have become all about the people that have stayed past Dr. Buchin's seminar.  I realize that my first meeting was one too and how valuable I found the opportunity to listen to people who have been through the surgery.  The second meeting of the month used to be the one where we could talk about what we were going through and feeling - post surgery.  I agree that it seems we never have time to really talk about anything personal or heartfelt once we get through the introductions and new people questions. 

While its important to be the poster children for the new recruits, we all do need a forum were we can talk about coping with life after surgery, weight loss, etc.  I'm not sure what the solution is but I am supportive of any suggestions.  Unfortunately, I won't be at any meetings until May due to work.

Veronica, I am truly sorry that you are going through a rough time and wish  I could help.  Whether you know it or not, I have valued your insights, humor and honesty all these months and always looked forward to seeing you at each meeting.  Know this, you were missed last night.

Arlene

[Veee1226]

Hi Arlene,

Thank you for posting and I hope we get to hear more from you on these boards.

It is nice to know that I was missed.  Tammy, Asim and Bud all contacted me to say the same.  I feel like I am losing my family right now.  When we start this journey, we are only thinking about the weight we want to lose.  But there are other losses we suffer, losses which are unexpected and can throw our personal lives into upheaval.  Yes, I've lost 120 pounds so far, but I also lost my marriage, my best friend, my identity, my comfort zone, my crutch and now I am losing my support system.  I am doing the best I can and I will continue on this path, but I am disappointed because I thought that I would always be coming to these meetings and leaving with the feeling of love and support that I had felt in the past.  But lately nothing is being accomplished, and nothing is being addressed.  I am no dummy, and I am not one to "gloss things over" and if I am going to be a poster child for anything, I want it to be for being someone who took a good hard look at her life, took responsibility for her failures and made the changes necessary to create her own path to happiness.  And, none of that really has to do with what I eat on a daily basis, or how much protein I need, or what vitamins I am or am not taking.  This journey is about changing your life.  This journey is about examining your behaviors, understanding how your brain processes things, and LEARNING how to change and manage your life properly.  It is about growth.  But our group is stunted right now.  And things need to change in order for any of us to grow.  And, sadly, I have lost alot of faith in this process.

I am really sad right now as I write this.  I am tired and feeling very alone these days.  I really want things to work out for all of us.  I think this group has the potential to become monumental but it seems to have lost it's focus and drive.  It needs an overhaul.

Again, this is all said with love and respect.

[such912]

Oscar
i appreciate your nice comments and am glad that you referred to me as a brother, because i never really felt we ever connected.  so, that did make me feel better as i honestly feel i have not really connected to anyone from the group.  i know i have my morale talks with veronica, but thats about it...


Veronica...
be positive and you negated yourself in your own post by saying you lost people post-op.. I know its rough, but you have to realize that you found a new family that care and worry about you. Oscar, Tammie, and Bud are wonderful people who i know will be there for you.  i know my words are just words and they are not replacements for your family or your best friend.  But at this point just take what you have and run with it.... thats all we can do to keep floating in this confusing and new lives we have created for ourselves...

By the way, be safe on the treacherous roadways and stay warm...

[Sophia Mcleod, MSPAS, RPA-C]

Thank you all for your honesty and openness.
A 'support' group is a very sensitive and difficult forum to facilitate especially when everyone's challenges vary and their paths different. When there is a room filled with those ranging from just learning about surgery to 2 -3 years post surgery not everyone will walk away feeling 'fulfilled' in the end. By speaking with most of you on a personal basis i am aware for the most part where your mindset is. I have really tried to accommodate that but in doing so I also took away from others.
You must also understand that when changes are implemented there are going to be occasionally over the first couple meetings when others may mistakenly attend the wrong meeting. I don't not believe that they should be turned away.
There are many occasions when meeting have fallen off course but when i try to bring it back on course no one wants to speak up. If a topic is important to you you should speak up. If you are not comfortable doing so then I cannot speak up for you (unless I know in advance and can throw the topic out).

Many times after meeting people who were quiet would say that was so helpful because they understand and they are going through the same thing.
I am constantly asking for topic suggestions - I am still waiting. These meetings are for you. I wont know what to address unless you let me know. If I don't know then there either will be an open meeting or I pick a topic on my own based on what people have been asking about the most or having the most difficulty with that I have seen and that may not be what you would like to hear about for the 40th time.

I do not have to run the meetings, I just have to be present. Group members are allowed to have topics and do the meetings. I have asked for volunteers but haven't gotten any recently. Oscar and Veronica have led meetings in the past and they were very nice meetings and I am not opposed to that at all.

Time is a factor I know but a lot can be accomplished in an hour or hour and a half if we stay focused.
I have read your concerns and yes I agree with most. For a meeting to be fulfilling and rewarding we have to all be on the same page. Don't be afraid to say something because someone just had surgery. Sorry to be blunt but it is what it is. Not everyone will have the same struggles but if we do this TOGETHER we could still help each other.
Dr Buchin and I are your biggest support  but we are not walking in your shoes and we don't have an answer for every obstacle or  bump in the road but we will do our best to guide you in the right direction or towards somewhere that will help you better find an answer.

My email is open, my phone is open, I am open and Dr Buchin is open. You just need to let us know and we will do our best. Our best may not always be perfect but we do try our hardest.

[Albrightlcsw]

I am very glad that you posted Sophia and that you are reminding us all that you are reading the posts and are open to looking at different ideas for the group.  I do not envy your position, it is difficult to accomodate so many people in so many different stages in this process.  Running or facilitating a group is by no means and easy task and I thank you for the time that you do give to the group.  Also I do like the fact that Dr. Buchin is there, it does show that there is support from the professionals through this process.  Hopefully we can all continue to grow through this process even when it feels painful.